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	<title>Comments on: On the Edge of Kink</title>
	<link>http://www.zenfetish.com/2006/11/20/on-the-edge-of-kink/</link>
	<description>Another day at the office with Angela St. Lawrence, PhoneFemFatale</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 22:22:14 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: ZenFetish &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Vanilla Savant: The Interview</title>
		<link>http://www.zenfetish.com/2006/11/20/on-the-edge-of-kink/#comment-3531</link>
		<dc:creator>ZenFetish &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Vanilla Savant: The Interview</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Dec 2006 05:25:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.zenfetish.com/2006/11/20/on-the-edge-of-kink/#comment-3531</guid>
		<description>[...] As I noted earlier: [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] As I noted earlier: [&#8230;]</p>
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		<title>By: science nerd</title>
		<link>http://www.zenfetish.com/2006/11/20/on-the-edge-of-kink/#comment-3316</link>
		<dc:creator>science nerd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Nov 2006 19:36:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.zenfetish.com/2006/11/20/on-the-edge-of-kink/#comment-3316</guid>
		<description>PQS, you sound like one of the exceptionally enlightened individuals in this country (the world?).  A relationship in which both partners are honestly communicating, sexually mature, personally confident and self-realized (oh, and attracted to each other for all the right reasons)?  Now that is an enviable situation which, it seems to me, is made even more difficult to achieve by an increasingly pulsating, impersonal, surrealistic world of entertainment that so permeates our culture.  

Thanks for your erudite observations, PQS.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>PQS, you sound like one of the exceptionally enlightened individuals in this country (the world?).  A relationship in which both partners are honestly communicating, sexually mature, personally confident and self-realized (oh, and attracted to each other for all the right reasons)?  Now that is an enviable situation which, it seems to me, is made even more difficult to achieve by an increasingly pulsating, impersonal, surrealistic world of entertainment that so permeates our culture.  </p>
<p>Thanks for your erudite observations, PQS.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Allen</title>
		<link>http://www.zenfetish.com/2006/11/20/on-the-edge-of-kink/#comment-3310</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Allen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Nov 2006 03:44:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.zenfetish.com/2006/11/20/on-the-edge-of-kink/#comment-3310</guid>
		<description>I think it's because most of us have not moved past the romanticization of ol' Marquis de Sade or Leopold Sacher-Masoch. Even those who have never heard of "Venus in Furs" or "The 120 Days of Sodom" have somehow internalized the taboo, hidden, and yes, perverted aspects. 

But our entire culture seems to force the &lt;b&gt;concepts&lt;/b&gt; of BDSM into a particular mold that , I think, we tend to also internalize. Imagine: Black leather corset and thigh-high riding boots. Can you pair that image up with &lt;i&gt;anything&lt;/i&gt; but a dominatrix? 

Very funny analogy with the BDSM culture &#38; the Freemasons. I'll have to mention it at my next lodge meeting.

Tom Allen
&lt;a href="http://vanillaedge.wordpress.com/" title="Looking over the edge into the abyss..." rel="nofollow"&gt;The Edge of Vanilla&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think it&#8217;s because most of us have not moved past the romanticization of ol&#8217; Marquis de Sade or Leopold Sacher-Masoch. Even those who have never heard of &#8220;Venus in Furs&#8221; or &#8220;The 120 Days of Sodom&#8221; have somehow internalized the taboo, hidden, and yes, perverted aspects. </p>
<p>But our entire culture seems to force the <b>concepts</b> of BDSM into a particular mold that , I think, we tend to also internalize. Imagine: Black leather corset and thigh-high riding boots. Can you pair that image up with <i>anything</i> but a dominatrix? </p>
<p>Very funny analogy with the BDSM culture &amp; the Freemasons. I&#8217;ll have to mention it at my next lodge meeting.</p>
<p>Tom Allen<br />
<a href="http://vanillaedge.wordpress.com/" title="Looking over the edge into the abyss..." rel="nofollow">The Edge of Vanilla</a></p>
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		<title>By: PQS</title>
		<link>http://www.zenfetish.com/2006/11/20/on-the-edge-of-kink/#comment-3309</link>
		<dc:creator>PQS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Nov 2006 03:13:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.zenfetish.com/2006/11/20/on-the-edge-of-kink/#comment-3309</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the thoughtful reply about the "taboo aspect".  Yeah, you're right, that appeal is certainly there for many and I guess, in thinking about it, it has its attractions.  If BD/SM wasn't sub rosa, a lot of people would move on to something else.  Sheep, beware!

But often it's all so childish.  Funny thing, isn't it.  Adults wanting to act like kids?  Sneaking around in dark "dungeons" wearing vinyl or PVC and ritualistically spanking or beating one another -- but not too hard and not if any secret "safe" word is uttered.  It's reminiscent of the funny handshakes and passwords that groups like the Masons and the Elks give one another. Why do we behave so when it comes to things sexual?  Go figure.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the thoughtful reply about the &#8220;taboo aspect&#8221;.  Yeah, you&#8217;re right, that appeal is certainly there for many and I guess, in thinking about it, it has its attractions.  If BD/SM wasn&#8217;t sub rosa, a lot of people would move on to something else.  Sheep, beware!</p>
<p>But often it&#8217;s all so childish.  Funny thing, isn&#8217;t it.  Adults wanting to act like kids?  Sneaking around in dark &#8220;dungeons&#8221; wearing vinyl or PVC and ritualistically spanking or beating one another &#8212; but not too hard and not if any secret &#8220;safe&#8221; word is uttered.  It&#8217;s reminiscent of the funny handshakes and passwords that groups like the Masons and the Elks give one another. Why do we behave so when it comes to things sexual?  Go figure.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Allen</title>
		<link>http://www.zenfetish.com/2006/11/20/on-the-edge-of-kink/#comment-3262</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Allen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Nov 2006 04:58:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.zenfetish.com/2006/11/20/on-the-edge-of-kink/#comment-3262</guid>
		<description>Hi Ms. St L - 

You think that &lt;i&gt;you&lt;/i&gt; were blown away? I just saw that you used my joke on Zen Humor ;-)

It's nice to see that you've got regular visitors who have interesting and intelligent conversations. This comment from PQS made me pause:
&lt;i&gt;For some reason it all has to involve something â€œverbotenâ€ or â€œnaughtyâ€. &lt;/i&gt;

I'm not sure that this is a totally bad thing. Part of the turn-on for many people, and not just porn consumers, is the idea that a particular act or situation is culturally taboo. If you ask any hundred people if they think of themselves as average or a bit out of the ordinary, you'll see that most of them will claim to be "not" average. We all would like to think of ourselves as being slightly rebelious, and for some of us, that is the appeal to actions that are sometimes defined as kinky.

In fact, if you freqent any BDSM related web groups, you'll find that a small percentage declare that part of the appeal of BDSM for them is the "extreme" or "taboo" aura. I've even read some people who claim that if BDSM ever acheives mainstream popularity, then they'll have to find something else.

Anyway, thank you for the recognition. And thanks to Richard for pointing you out a while back.

Tom Allen 
&lt;a href="http://vanillaedge.wordpress.com/" title="Looking over the edge into the abyss..." rel="nofollow"&gt;The Edge of Vanilla&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Ms. St L - </p>
<p>You think that <i>you</i> were blown away? I just saw that you used my joke on Zen Humor <img src='http://www.zenfetish.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>It&#8217;s nice to see that you&#8217;ve got regular visitors who have interesting and intelligent conversations. This comment from PQS made me pause:<br />
<i>For some reason it all has to involve something â€œverbotenâ€ or â€œnaughtyâ€. </i></p>
<p>I&#8217;m not sure that this is a totally bad thing. Part of the turn-on for many people, and not just porn consumers, is the idea that a particular act or situation is culturally taboo. If you ask any hundred people if they think of themselves as average or a bit out of the ordinary, you&#8217;ll see that most of them will claim to be &#8220;not&#8221; average. We all would like to think of ourselves as being slightly rebelious, and for some of us, that is the appeal to actions that are sometimes defined as kinky.</p>
<p>In fact, if you freqent any BDSM related web groups, you&#8217;ll find that a small percentage declare that part of the appeal of BDSM for them is the &#8220;extreme&#8221; or &#8220;taboo&#8221; aura. I&#8217;ve even read some people who claim that if BDSM ever acheives mainstream popularity, then they&#8217;ll have to find something else.</p>
<p>Anyway, thank you for the recognition. And thanks to Richard for pointing you out a while back.</p>
<p>Tom Allen<br />
<a href="http://vanillaedge.wordpress.com/" title="Looking over the edge into the abyss..." rel="nofollow">The Edge of Vanilla</a></p>
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		<title>By: Lyndee</title>
		<link>http://www.zenfetish.com/2006/11/20/on-the-edge-of-kink/#comment-3259</link>
		<dc:creator>Lyndee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Nov 2006 00:44:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.zenfetish.com/2006/11/20/on-the-edge-of-kink/#comment-3259</guid>
		<description>I couldn't agree with you more, Angela!!

Happy Thanksgiving, dearest one...xoxo</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I couldn&#8217;t agree with you more, Angela!!</p>
<p>Happy Thanksgiving, dearest one&#8230;xoxo</p>
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		<title>By: Angela</title>
		<link>http://www.zenfetish.com/2006/11/20/on-the-edge-of-kink/#comment-3258</link>
		<dc:creator>Angela</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Nov 2006 00:20:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.zenfetish.com/2006/11/20/on-the-edge-of-kink/#comment-3258</guid>
		<description>Balance is a good thing.  In all pursuits, even sexual ones.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Balance is a good thing.  In all pursuits, even sexual ones.</p>
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		<title>By: PQS</title>
		<link>http://www.zenfetish.com/2006/11/20/on-the-edge-of-kink/#comment-3248</link>
		<dc:creator>PQS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Nov 2006 19:07:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.zenfetish.com/2006/11/20/on-the-edge-of-kink/#comment-3248</guid>
		<description>You're right, Nerd.  Most porn, after you see enough of it, is pretty boring.  Personally, I dislike the cheapness and tawdriness of it.  So much of it is moronic and targeted at illiterates.  I'm supposed to get turned on watching a grainy film depicting a tattooed Fabio having his way some panting porn queen?  Why?

Another thing about most porn that I dislike is its sub rosa aspect.  For some reason it all has to involve something "verboten"  or "naughty".  The world of porn is always peopled with gorgeous women secretly diddling themselves with dildos, off-limits underaged cheerleaders having sex with their teacher, transsexual wrestlers pulling down one another's trunks and expressing "shock" and "surprise",  women doing ritualistic "spankings" of 60-year old "naughty boys", blah, blah blah.  It's all so juvenile.  Because our society thinks variation in the ways we can have sexual intercourse is such a "bad" thing, when we depict it, it always has to have an aspect akin to kids sticking their hands into a cookie jar.  I get very tired of this.

Also, in porn, there's seldom any seduction or frisson, none of the participants in porn ever seem to have real personalities.  They never seem to want to laugh, to play, or to have any "fun". There's never any banter or wit, not real attempt at dialogue, no opportunity for a viewer to care about the dramatis personae.

I also dislike the fact that porn, strictly speaking is totally voyeuristic.  When I read or see it, I'm always forced into the role of being a third-party viewing others engaged in some kind of activity.  It's always about watching other people do it.  My role, I suppose, is to just shut up, pull out my pud, and masturbate.  That, at bottom, is totally solitary, completely unimaginative, and emotionally empty.  I may get off, but I don't depart from the experience with any epiphanies.

Maybe the allure of phone sex and prostitution is that at least these outlets are interactive.  At least in theory they are individualized.  But the naggingly bad part about even these avenues is that, at bottom, what is involved is just a financial transaction.  There isn't much caring about one another, not much real tenderness. You just plunk out the coin, buy a fantasy for a few minutes from a real voice or a real body, ejaculate, and then move on.  Some people may be happy with that.  It's perhaps better than no intimacy at all or repetitive "Ground-Hog-Day" experiences with a cold spouse.  But it isn't particularly satisfying. Really good sex is a lot more personal than that.

I'm meandering, I suppose.  But what I'm trying to say, I guess, is that sex can, and really should be, so much more than it is in an American society where dysfunctional relationships seems to be the norm and not the exception.

Maybe that's why I get grouchy when I read about unhappy "vanilla" relationships.  Or, worse, about totally asexual relationships (a married guy in my office who hasn't had sex with a woman in 13 years comes to my mind here).Â   It irritates me to think how something so natural, intimate and pleasurable can go so wrong.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;re right, Nerd.  Most porn, after you see enough of it, is pretty boring.  Personally, I dislike the cheapness and tawdriness of it.  So much of it is moronic and targeted at illiterates.  I&#8217;m supposed to get turned on watching a grainy film depicting a tattooed Fabio having his way some panting porn queen?  Why?</p>
<p>Another thing about most porn that I dislike is its sub rosa aspect.  For some reason it all has to involve something &#8220;verboten&#8221;  or &#8220;naughty&#8221;.  The world of porn is always peopled with gorgeous women secretly diddling themselves with dildos, off-limits underaged cheerleaders having sex with their teacher, transsexual wrestlers pulling down one another&#8217;s trunks and expressing &#8220;shock&#8221; and &#8220;surprise&#8221;,  women doing ritualistic &#8220;spankings&#8221; of 60-year old &#8220;naughty boys&#8221;, blah, blah blah.  It&#8217;s all so juvenile.  Because our society thinks variation in the ways we can have sexual intercourse is such a &#8220;bad&#8221; thing, when we depict it, it always has to have an aspect akin to kids sticking their hands into a cookie jar.  I get very tired of this.</p>
<p>Also, in porn, there&#8217;s seldom any seduction or frisson, none of the participants in porn ever seem to have real personalities.  They never seem to want to laugh, to play, or to have any &#8220;fun&#8221;. There&#8217;s never any banter or wit, not real attempt at dialogue, no opportunity for a viewer to care about the dramatis personae.</p>
<p>I also dislike the fact that porn, strictly speaking is totally voyeuristic.  When I read or see it, I&#8217;m always forced into the role of being a third-party viewing others engaged in some kind of activity.  It&#8217;s always about watching other people do it.  My role, I suppose, is to just shut up, pull out my pud, and masturbate.  That, at bottom, is totally solitary, completely unimaginative, and emotionally empty.  I may get off, but I don&#8217;t depart from the experience with any epiphanies.</p>
<p>Maybe the allure of phone sex and prostitution is that at least these outlets are interactive.  At least in theory they are individualized.  But the naggingly bad part about even these avenues is that, at bottom, what is involved is just a financial transaction.  There isn&#8217;t much caring about one another, not much real tenderness. You just plunk out the coin, buy a fantasy for a few minutes from a real voice or a real body, ejaculate, and then move on.  Some people may be happy with that.  It&#8217;s perhaps better than no intimacy at all or repetitive &#8220;Ground-Hog-Day&#8221; experiences with a cold spouse.  But it isn&#8217;t particularly satisfying. Really good sex is a lot more personal than that.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m meandering, I suppose.  But what I&#8217;m trying to say, I guess, is that sex can, and really should be, so much more than it is in an American society where dysfunctional relationships seems to be the norm and not the exception.</p>
<p>Maybe that&#8217;s why I get grouchy when I read about unhappy &#8220;vanilla&#8221; relationships.  Or, worse, about totally asexual relationships (a married guy in my office who hasn&#8217;t had sex with a woman in 13 years comes to my mind here).Â   It irritates me to think how something so natural, intimate and pleasurable can go so wrong.</p>
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		<title>By: science nerd</title>
		<link>http://www.zenfetish.com/2006/11/20/on-the-edge-of-kink/#comment-3247</link>
		<dc:creator>science nerd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Nov 2006 17:43:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.zenfetish.com/2006/11/20/on-the-edge-of-kink/#comment-3247</guid>
		<description>I think most of the world of porn, phone sex, fairly explicit commercial media, etc is really not so good.  Perhaps the financial success of this "industry" is more indicative of how isolated so many people have become in this world of amazing instant communication.  Add to that the addictive behavior so easily pursued and definitely encouraged in the privacy of your study and I think porn (defined broadly) is mostly sad and counterproductive.

Lest I sound like some hypocritical conservative, the above commentary about personal kink or vanilla or rocky road are all on the money in the confines of personal relationships.  And the right to access the legal porn of your choice should be defended vigorously.

In the midst of a pretty sad and sordid landscape stands the wonderful, sensitive, humane yet very sexy Angela who is an artist and creative genius.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think most of the world of porn, phone sex, fairly explicit commercial media, etc is really not so good.  Perhaps the financial success of this &#8220;industry&#8221; is more indicative of how isolated so many people have become in this world of amazing instant communication.  Add to that the addictive behavior so easily pursued and definitely encouraged in the privacy of your study and I think porn (defined broadly) is mostly sad and counterproductive.</p>
<p>Lest I sound like some hypocritical conservative, the above commentary about personal kink or vanilla or rocky road are all on the money in the confines of personal relationships.  And the right to access the legal porn of your choice should be defended vigorously.</p>
<p>In the midst of a pretty sad and sordid landscape stands the wonderful, sensitive, humane yet very sexy Angela who is an artist and creative genius.</p>
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		<title>By: booklover</title>
		<link>http://www.zenfetish.com/2006/11/20/on-the-edge-of-kink/#comment-3246</link>
		<dc:creator>booklover</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Nov 2006 15:10:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://www.zenfetish.com/2006/11/20/on-the-edge-of-kink/#comment-3246</guid>
		<description>A breakfast on the Wild Side! Go for it!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A breakfast on the Wild Side! Go for it!</p>
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